AC33 stats?
Hello all,
This is my first post here and I am looking for average VMG for each leg and both boats during AC 33. I would also like to get information on the true wind speed at a height relevant for those boats.
TIA,
/Martin
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Martin, a good VMG-idea was
Martin, a good VMG-idea was posted (link below) by Sailor2, in relation to whether the AC33 boats now had any future. He wrote:
"I think The trimaran could be used to make a record in a new category, Max upwind VMG for any sailboat on the water in a liquid form.
"Such category might not exist yet, but there is no reason why it couldn't exist. But if they don't even ask, we'll never know what it would be capable of. My best guess is still 20+ knots upwind VMG. Meaning 50% faster than what it achieved on Friday in light conditions."
Regarding what VMG was exactly reached during AC33, (or any other precise data) there is not much yet - even the lawyers are busy writing their tell-all books? But the following quote of Daniel Charles addresses your question:
" When I was a kid, the record of VMG to windward was some 10.8 kts (if my memory’s correct) established in 1937 by the (super) J-Class Ranger –and this was deemed an unbeatable maximum! Today, USA did 15 knots, which is unheard of (C-Class cats do between 12 and 13)..."
max upwind VMG idea:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/no-interest-ac-30353-11.html...
'Reflections of Daniel Charles':
http://foils.wordpress.com/2010/02/
Thank you for publishing
Thank you for publishing this - I was going to write something about this but felt the moment had passed.... clearly not. A few points I would like to clarify. Firstly Alinghi's protest flag was raised on the first leg of that race - according to Brad Butterworth in that evening's press conference - for what they felt was the starting area not being clear of spectator boats which had limited their pre-start options. When they lost the race they dropped the protest as Butterworth said that they didn't feel it would have affected the outcome. So the moment has definitely passed in this respect.
Secondly it is the PRO's job and not the race committee's to decide whether racing was to start or not.
One theory being put out about what happened on the Race Committee boat was that someone from the Alinghi team or possibly on board Alinghi 5 itself, had told Alinghi lawyer Lucien Masmejan and then the three SNG race committee members to ensure that that race didn't start. It may have been for this reason - that the crew didn't think a race was going to start - that was the cause of Alinghi 5 being late to ping the two ends of the line and hence picking up a penalty for being in the box as they were supposed to be entering it.
But aside from intellectual intrigue this makes not an iota of difference. The BMW Oracle tri proved herself to be much much faster particularly off the wind than Alinghi 5 in both races and won the 33rd America's Cup by a large margin. Case closed.
"Committee Boat Mutiny" In
"Committee Boat Mutiny"
In regard to Fred Meyer's recent open letter - his account of how Race 2 was started without the consent of the SNG members on the Race Committee - I had a look through the race video 3 weeks ago when Meyer first made similar statements to the Bazel newspaper.
The starting zone is to varying degrees in and out of the frame, but if you freeze the video (link below) there are many spectator boats visible around the starboard portion of the zone at for example 3 min 56 s. and 3 min 17 s. before the gun.
(If it was easy to post the video stills on this forum I'd be happy to, but it isn't).
Judging by those stills (and ignoring the one chosen by SA for their front page, filenamed 'SNG myth'), the spectator craft entirely blocked the option of getting to speed on starboard tack and starting close to the committee boat. Quite unlike what was envisaged in the Sailing Instruction diagrams showing 'forbidden zones' for spectator craft at the start.
So who was out there at the start of Race 2 who can tell us what they saw? Were spectator boats ignoring orders to clear the area, or were such orders just not given?
My own first-hand experience of the start area was unfortunately limited to 5 hours of milling around the line on Feb. 8th, when racing was called off. In the calm weather that day nobody paid much attention to the 'zone restrictions', and there were not many spectator boats out there in any case.
Meyer's letter (in English & French):
http://www.yachtingworld.com/performance-world/news/445299/was-race-2-of...
http://www.skippers.ch./news/index.php?news=616&page=1
Video "Highlights 26min":
http://www.americascup.com/en/multimedia/video/index.php
Pete Melvin knows BMOR's
Pete Melvin knows BMOR's weight but has signed a non-disclosure agreement. He reckons Alinghi 5 was about 13T
I think Sail's article is
I think Sail's article is the first I have seen that guestimate BOR's weight to be less than Alinghi's. But then their weights look like pretty wild guesses which is why I asked. The scaled up C-cat weight is only used as a reference I think.
Sweden is a small place (half the population of Beijing) but I don't know every Swedish engineer and this guy isn't even living in Sweden it seems. It is kind of fun to see he has been involved with Boeing. My own Mr. X of BOR is a Boeing aerodynamics guy but unfortunately he is not very informative regarding BOR :-(
Yes, I saw that interview with Loïck Peyron. I don't think he said anything of value. He was just fooling around with media, maybe hoping to corrode the confidence of the BOR crew a little. It was fun watching though.
James, you did VMG estimates? I have to go back and look. (We have met btw. Ask Simon F. of ISAF next time you meet. He probably remembers even though it was many moons ago.)
/Martin
During the Cup I was
During the Cup I was hounding Rolf Vrolijk and Mike Drummond for weights and starting from Franck Cammas' guestimates of 13 tonne for Alinghi 5 and 15 for BMW Oracle Racing (but this was back in October) the closest I got was Rolf Vrolijk reckoning Alinghi 5 was the lighter but there was "less than one tonne" between the two boats. Of course this was a guestimate on his part about the other boat. The published figure for 'the wing' was 3.5 tonnes which BMW Oracle claimed was somehow lighter than their previous softsail set up (which I find hard to believe despite it having half the square acreage upwind). I would imagine Alinghi's 8 or so metre shorter conventional wingmast/softsail rig was lighter. Alinghi's central spine system would be lighter than the tri's centre hull, however we suspect the floats on the tri are lighter as would be the cross beams (the most substantial structure on these boats). The tri was also a little longer. Alinghi has two cockpits and more winches, much more rope, etc. Structurally it is believed that Alinghi was more lightly built for lighter winds and flat water, while the BMW crew were regularly talking about how they had taken their tri out in 20 something knots and given it a thrashing. Conversely Alinghi are also know for building their boats 'conservatively' so perhaps they didn't go for all-out light weight. So I agree with Vrolijk's 14-15 tonne guestimate. I think in our race one report we calculated some VMG figures.
There is new info just out,
There is new info just out, regarding USA 17's (potential) VMG!
Today Voiles and Voiliers published an interview with an anonymous source, 'Mr. X', who they assure us is an insider of the USA 17 team. Mr. X describes two systems they had for anti-friction; the first is riblet film on the outriggers, and secondly he gives exotic details about the polymer 'slick' said to be a feature of USA 17's amas.
'Mr. X' claims to V&V that the polymer (with an ingredient of shampoos and medical injections?) was amazingly capable of increasing VMG by 1-2 knots speed. The ejected 'slick' is described as being a mix of powder and seawater, with 200 kilos of powder (mixed while sailing to create 2 tons of solution) needed for each race. But he says the USA 17 team had trouble getting the system to work properly in both amas, and decided at the last minute not to use it! He also says that BOR acquired so much of this powder via a third source (a US research lab), so as to lessen the risk of Bertarelli hearing about it through his contacts in the pharmaceutical industry...
Here's the link, if you don't mind a little French:
http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/article/2825/33e-coupe-de-...
Back to the topic of SAIL Magazine's estimates of weight for USA 17 and Alinghi5: They say they scaled up the weight of a C-class boat and they seemed pleased with the 'counter-intuitive' result; that Alinghi was supposedly much heavier than BOR90 (in metric tons 15.3 v. 11.7). It sounds haywire to me.
In the weight table in that article there were other signs that SAIL's assumptions were off-target. For example they assigned equal weight to the (pre-race) BOR wingmast and the Alinghi 5 spreadered mast; They assigned a 4000 lbs weight to the 'center pole' Y-structure on Alinghi, and a 3000 lbs estimate for the center hull of BOR90.
But according to builder Bertrand Cardis, a Y-structure makes for as little as 1/5 the weight of a center hull (in the context of D35's); and regarding mast weights, Peyron was interviewed here at TDS, I think, saying how wonderfully light the Alinghi spreadered mast was, compared to the VPLP-BOR variety. Peyron should know.
The weights are of course still a secret, so it is fun to speculate. During the race broadcasts I think I heard Cam Lewis say that Alinghi might only weigh around 8.5 tons, but I don't know if he mentioned that number as being his own 'guesstimate', or just some rumor.
The Swedish engineer Jan-Anders Månson knows more about Alinghi's weight and build specs, should you ever have a chance to ask him, Martin! Today's Le Temps item (link below) may be in response to a few backbiting Swiss critics who have been eager to find fault with EPFL's involvement with Alinghi.
About Jan-Anders Månson/EPFL:
http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/d3b4fe14-1c03-11df-ac4e-251af3000cf2
http://www.swisster.ch/news/society/epfl-expert-unlocks-secrets-dreamlin...
Today the Swiss press also features more of Bertarelli's post-race reflections. Amid the comments it is clear that Bertarelli did not like it especially, when Vincenzo Onorato once or twice wished shipwreck upon Alinghi 5...
Bertarelli is too polite to wish the same in return upon Onorato (owner of passenger ferries). But he enjoys pointing out Onorato's questionable taste in wearing a BOR uniform, while signing his AC34 challenge of record.
Bertarelli interviews today, in German:
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/sport/aktuell/segeln_-_bertarelli_schliess...
http://bazonline.ch/sport/weitere/Bertarelli-schliesst-weiteren-Americas...
in French:
http://www.tdg.ch/actu/sports/bertarelli-faire-confiance-gens-2010-02-17
http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/31599220-1c11-11df-ac4e-251af3000cf2
http://www.20min.ch/ro/sports/autres/story/28044918
Average VMG should be easy
Average VMG should be easy to calculate from rounding times and assuming the courses were fairly accurate DOD courses. I have race 1 on DVD from a friend but not race 2.
The Sail magazine predictions are interesting. Where do they get those weight estimates from?
/Martin
Average VMG's for the AC33
Average VMG's for the AC33 boats, Martin? There was occasionally a VMG number flashed onscreen during the race coverage, so perhaps such averages were available to the commentators PJ and Cam. Someone should ask if they noticed...
All I've seen is guesswork about it so far, like the estimates done by Sail Magazine. There's polars (link below)!
As far as the 'stats' about visitor numbers etc. to AC33, Don't you think that they forgot to mention some of the more interesting ones:
First of all, how much money did these boats cost?
Bertrand Cardis was the first Alinghi team member Swiss to break the post-cup-handover silence.
He mentions his estimate that BOR90/USA17 must have cost at least 50 million Swiss francs, versus about 15 million francs for Alinghi 5.
So Cardis is saying Ellison spent about 3 times more than Bertarelli, on the gear itself! I think he is just considering build costs without R&D etc.
Asked what the future of the boat might be, Cardis says, to paraphrase, that the boat is so complicated, and expensive to maintain, that a chainsaw seems the most sensible option...
Cardis says in the same interview "I had always some reservations about the width of the cat and the height of its mast. These proportions didn't appeal to me. But it must be said that A5 was designed for a different venue, less subject to swell than what you have in the seas off Valencia. The real worry for a boat like this is rough seas, not the strength of the wind... And the problem for Alinghi, was to have been pushed up against the ropes by Oracle, to have lost their rights as Defender".
By the way! In light of the reports about the 'Mutiny on the Committee Boat' during the last days, for anyone who is interested I include below links to a couple of interesting items, one being Fred Meyer's statement to Swiss press today (he suggests they had Bennett 'outvoted'), the other is Gino Morelli's blog entry written just as that 2nd start was being prepared - Morelli was there, and clearly thinking that the sea could pose a danger to the boats, here's what he wrote:
February 14, 2010 4:16:05 PM
Starting action!
Race #2
Spectator boats crowding up. We are on stb side of the RC boat. The race course upwind looks fairly consistant wind across now. Bit of swell showed up hour or so ago from somewhere long off, but has 4ft-5ft in it. Could make for some wave jumping upwind...good photos! Boats will be sailed in anger today... Won't be surprised if we don't see a bit of carnage...
Swiss cowbells ringing now as we get close to start. I will continue reporting during race as long as I am in cell range.
Gino
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
Sail Magazine predictions about BOR90:
http://sailmagazine.com/cupdate/we%5Fpredict%5Fthe%5Fwinner/
Post-race interview with Cardis:
http://www.tdg.ch/actu/sports/heureusement-reves-milliardaire-2010-02-15
Fred Meyer about 'Mutiny':
http://bazonline.ch/sport/weitere/Streik-auf-dem-Startschiff/story/29645...
Morelli's 'Gino's News' page:
http://www.morrellimelvin.com/news/index.php?WEBYEP_DI=4#ginonews